Flesh and blood or myth.

[vampirehunter42]

Ok, I think this thread is in need of starting. And I wish to place a couple of rules.

1) Keep this civil, I don't want name calling, telling other posters off, or anything like that. Just keep tempers in tact.

2) Try to give useable references to "facts" you use in your posts. This can be quotes from books, other web pages, or what ever. But they must be something which can be checked by others.

3) Keep this on this thread. I don't want it to cover other threads. (seeing it was about to do that anyway)

4) Watch for other rules, as the thread lives. I know I'll need to stop other things I can't think of later.


And here is the question:

Are (or were) dragons real, as in a flesh and blood creature, or are they myth and legend, coming from the power of our minds?

Have fun I’ll post mind later this weekend.

[+ Silver - Orbs +]

An embodiment of what is everything we fear, revere and aspire to be.
I'll add detail once my brain has rebooted

[Silentiea]

For anyone whose brain needs booting.

I think I'll probably keep myself out of here for the most part, unless someone says something worth replying to. I'll probably reply to things people say elsewhere, too, but I'll try to point them here.

[Araki]

While it may be hard to prove one way or another I believe with all my heart that yes Dragons did really exist. There are just too many stories and legends that stretch back threw history. Granted some of them are probably pure fantasy. How ever I 100% believe that all of they mythilogical creatures existed at some point, and maybe even still are but just hiding some where or have found way to disguise them selves. ANyway I got off my original thought, but there has to have been some encounter between humans and dragons that originated the very first story/ legend of them.

[vampirehunter42]

Well the same thing can be said for "flying saucers". There are many stories from around the world and time, with much more evidence than for any dragon.

On the starts of my thoughts, I see the "dragon" as a manifestation of our lost link to nature. Seeing dragons are either a dark creature in need of surpassing or a somewhat kind creature normally controlling the weather or helping crops grow.

In their dark form, people try to overcome them. The dragon must be slain to keep it from poising well water or from taking a sacrifice from the populace. This comes mostly from the European dragon tails, but some of the North American dragons are like this as well. And seeing, with the advent of Christianity, they were linked with the devil. With this bringing forth the need for 'the knight in shining armor' to have to kill a dragon. It is a spiritual form of having to slay the darkness in your own sole. But seeing there are no dragon parts in any of the many castles around Europe, I really don't think any knight killed a dragon. And seeing the St. George tail started during the crusades, and was the killing of a dragon living in water. I really think it was a crocodile which was killed there, and in time was changed to a dragon.

The lighter dragons are givers of nature’s gifts and wrath. These dragons are what bring the rain, breath out fog, cause floods, bring earthquakes and bring life to the sea. So they are more part as the forces of nature than a living thing.

I'll bring in more of my thoughts later.

[+ Silver - Orbs +]

It is a spiritual form of having to slay the darkness in your own sole.

I 'gree. I guess I was brought up to have a healthy interest in science and logic. That tells me that no creature of such power and proportions could physically exist. And my imaginations tells me vice versa.

[Araki]

True with what we know in science now has to real way to prove that they do/did exist. How ever I have yet to see any one beable to prove with 100% certainty that they did not either. You have to remember that there are still things that we learn every day that we did not know about the day before threw science. So you never know if tomorrow the lochness monster for example is finnaly caught and found to be a aquatic dragon.

[Silentiea]

Not to be a spoil-sport, Araki, but have you ever seen anyone prove anything with 100% certainty?

[vampirehunter42]

The problem is nothing can be disproved. Yes, you can prove something is real by finding a body, dead or alive. Trust me, I would love for someone to bring up the body of a true dragon. But until then I will keep my belief in the "nature spirit" idea of the dragon. In the stories I have read in myths referenced in 'Elemental Encyclopedia of Magical Creatures' have the dragon as that.

[Silentiea]

Well, the biggest problem is that myths, especially newer ones, portray 'dragons' as pretty much whatever you could want.

And I say myths referring to actual mythology, not books and such, unless a significant number of people have adopted said books to their prime beliefs.

[Dragon444]

Personaly I believe dragons did exist at one point in time. Note how most of the tales of dragons from around appeared around the same time. Also the fact that most dragons are defined around 3 basic characteristics; 1) they are highly inteligent, 2) most are capable of flight, 3) nearly all have some sort of unnatural ability (weather control, breath weapon, etc.)

[Cynder]

there is a dragon living in my aunts backyard and only me and my cousin know about it

[cynder again]

i think flesh and blood cuz there is 1 in my aunties backyard!

[Silentiea]

Well, Cynder, now there's a lot more people who know about it. A whole internet, potentially.

[Araki]

Not to be a spoil-sport, Araki, but have you ever seen anyone prove anything with 100% certainty?

yeah if you look at about any science book you will find alot of things there that have been proven. Most of the stuff that you would find in there would of been thought to be a total work of fantasy 3-400 years ago. The point I was trying to get across though is there has to have been at some point if not still are dragons otherwise there would of been no basis for all the legends and stories that have made thier way threw history there had to be a real meeting between man and dragon at some point even if it was as little as some guy looking up on a hill side and seeing one there. Over who knows how long the story has been retold and changed so many tmes that we wouldnt know the original story if it slaped us in the face. in a small way its that same reason I dont trust almost anything in the bible or most any other religious book they have all been rewritten and reinterpredted so many times I can say with a fair ammount of certanty that no one would recognise the original version.

[Silentiea]

This time it is intentionally to be a spoil-sport. Sorry about that.

There is no self-respecting scientist in the world who would say anything other than the beliefs of his own heart with one hundred percent certainty, becasue their life is finding ways around the rules they write. They're very extremely certain, no doubt, but only a Sith deals in absolutes. (lullz)

As for the religious stuff: The dead sea scrolls pretty much is the original stuff, and a lot of people recognized them right quick.

As for Dragons: This is where septics say, "yeah, the stories have changed a lot. The original dragons were probably just some big lizards, and little peasants wanted an excuse not to work for a while."

[Justwondering]

Has anybody considered that Dinosours might not be as old as what we are led to believe, but could have lived around the same time as ancient man. The tales of Dragons could therefore come from ancient man seeing dinosaurs, and over time as knowledge was lost, the true description of dinosaurs was lost. This could have an effect like chinese whispers so that by the medieval times the dinosaurs, (or whatever ancient man called them) became stories of the "Dragons". Just an interesting thought I had.

[vampirehunter42]

A closer idea is they found the "bones" of the creatures. And trying to work out what it may have been put together wrong. This is also the idea for where giants and some other mythic creatures came from.

[Silentiea]

It's really quite rare that someone just 'finds' dinosaur bones, and very rare that carbon dating (or similar methods) will be off by more than a few hundred years, so: No. I don't think dinosaurs were around with any real sort of men. Especially not the sort that had language.

[vampirehunter42]

Well in fact fossils are some what easy to find in the right places. I have 3 I found on my family ranch in Texas (Just a couple of old shells). But I know people who have boxes of shark's teeth from around where I live.(it is the Georgia state fossil.)

And in the areas with a large number of them people have found parts of things, most after earthquakes opening them to the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_collecting

[Silentiea]

Fossils in general are very easy to find. Fossilized leaves, for example, exist pretty much everywhere. Dinosaur fossils are rather a bit more difficult to stumble upon. Earthquakes are generally the only thing that lets dinosaur bones be found by a casual passer-by.

[vampirehunter42]

And that is why when they are found, people did not know what to think about them.
Like in the following about griffins

The griffin was a common feature of "animal style" Scythian gold. It was said to inhabit the Scythian steppes that reached from the modern Ukraine to central Asia; there gold and precious stones were abundant and when strangers approached to gather the stones, the creatures would leap on them and tear them to pieces. The Scythians used giant petrified bones found in this area as proof of the existence of these griffins and thus keep outsiders away from the gold and precious stones.

Adrienne Mayor, a classical folklorist, has recently suggested that these "griffin bones" were actually dinosaur fossils, which are common in this part of the world. In The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times, she makes tentative connections between the rich fossil beds around the Mediterranean and across the steppes to the Gobi Desert and the myths of griffins, centaurs and archaic giants originating in the Classical world. Mayor draws upon similarities that exist between the prehistoric Protoceratops skeletons of the steppes leading to the Gobi Desert, and the legends of the gold-hoarding griffin told by nomadic Scythians of the region

All you need is just one part of a large creature to create a monster. When they found a leg bone the size of a normal person, they thought it had to be from a monster and that it died within just a year or so.

[Silentiea]

Right. My argument was mostly against 'Justwondering'.

[vampirehunter42]

Ok, I get you.

But I do really want to read that ladies book.

But I was wanting for a little more debateing here......

[Silentiea]

Debate with justwondering, then.