Imagine...

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:45 pm

...living in a city where creativity is encouraged... a city that blends human and humans (as well as natures) creators' ingenuitity together... a city where everyone is happy... where the reigning political system is a sort of sheltered anarchy... a city that has space travel... a city that uses the minimum tech neccersary to achieve a task... a city where the technology is disguised, ever present but hidden... a city where the life expectancy is into the hundreds, at least... this is the city I dream of.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:21 pm

*closes eyes* Ok, I think I am in the suburbs right now.... Heading to town.... Well the public transport is good...... But what is that odd smell?..... Hey down town..... only walkers, bicycles, skates and is that one of those things that don't fall?...... Hey, open air coffee houses..... There is that odd smell again....... Wow, I just noticed, no sidewalks..... Just grass and trees........ Hey, I don't see any of the shadier side of cities..... Like bums and street walkers and the like....... Well there are no streets anyway...... Odd what is this building?...... 'government clinic for eu...' that can't be right..... Something just don't feel right about this place....... There are just not enough of people around....... need to go..

Wow, I don't know. Something just don't feel right with that "Utopia". I am really sorry about that but I have read and watched too many Distopian books and movies. And have the darker realism to life.

As I said something would "feel wrong" with a city like that. And seeing the only way to make a city like that is to "remove the lesser elements", it would just not be the city for me. And my question is, how do you get rid of them?

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:14 am

We'd kill 'em all!

Nah, we'd help them. Somehow.

Well, I did say it was my ideal city, not that it was currently practical. Poeople would require a culture change before they accepted it. Did you know the word 'Utopia' actually means 'No Place'?

I wonder ho many bums and other assorted dregs of humanity you'd actually get in such a city. What causes the problems we have in todays cities?

http://cleanslate.editboard.com/index.h ... 3ddc76bed9

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:38 pm

we could brain whash them, much easier than persading them eh?

seriously though thats, just slightly evil though, and very similar to the book "the giver" it's an interesting read if i do say so myself and actuly makes perfection seem very very scary.

you should read it.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:58 pm

Odd site. I'll read some if I get a chance.

First on the undesirables in cities. A lot of these people do not choose this life. One major problem with life right now is so many people are one or two paychecks away from living on the street. And once you are there, that is where you will stay. This is more or less due to not enough jobs out there, and who would give these people a job. But also there are the "leaches", people who have nothing better to do than just take what the world will give them and give nothing to help back. And in a city like described above, these people will thrive. And will bring the downfall of it.

Second: A city like above will have to be a segregated city with a population limit. You can only allow the people who would most help it (and maybe only for a set time). And then you can only have a set number of people in it until you began to have people who have nothing to do, or over populate a set job type. So you need to get rid of them. Or maybe a Logan's Run fix by killing everyone once they reach a set age.

Also I am thinking more of the area of the silent movie "Metropolis".

Metropolis is set in the year 2026, in the extraordinary Art Deco skyscrapers of a corporate city-state, the metropolis of the title. Society has been divided into two rigid groups: one of planners or thinkers, who live high above the earth in luxury, and another of workers who live underground toiling to sustain the lives of the privileged. The city is run by Johann 'Joh' Fredersen

The main city is paradise, with amazing technology. But it is all due to the slave like use of the workers. And shows someone needs to do the "dirty jobs" that need to be done.

Now that can be fixed by robot workers or the like. But then you fall under the largest problem with technology, at some point all technology will fail. Some are minor problems and others are major disasters. But even a minor problem can plunge the city into chaos.

Wow I have a sad lookout of life, no wonder I am so grim at times.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:19 am

I've read the Giver. Interesting read.

As for leaches... well, who is going to give them something for nothing? I was actually thinking of people being as self sufficient as possible. Idealistic, I know. As I said, a sort of Sheltered Anarchy.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:45 pm

Good now I see the city as it is. You will let the die like the useless vermin they are. And I trust the same can be said for people as they fall on hard times. Either that or they will be shipped off to a reservation or some type of camp. And again showing a form of segregation, not a color one but a â€œwhat can you do for the cityâ€ one. And that requires a strong force to police the area to keep these types of people out of the city. Either that or allow people to take the law in their own hands and remove the problems themselves. â€œOh, you fond five dead men in that ally. Well that is ok, they would have died anyway.â€

My main problem is 100% of people can not live like that. Some people for whatever reason have no real skills, and are stuck doing basic labor. Others may have physical problems (loss of vision, leg, arm,.....) that hinder them from their ideal profession, and must do things they don't want to or like. And then you get the power hungry, people who "must" be in charge and will do so by any means necessary. All of these people can find a place in the city above but will over time disrupt the peace at times. Which will cause rifts in the power structure, and as the power hungry take over slowly change it to a government of their ideal perfection.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:13 am

Who said I would let people die if they fall on hard times? Other than you, that is.

I'm going to write a book about my ideas. It will have on the front page the famous quote from Deep Thought: It's the answer, but you won't like it.... *wanders off topic dreamily* When I get my laptop to work, that is.

You get those sorts of flaws in any system. The more accountable a system is, though (accountability = democracy), the less chance such people have of taking over. The aim is to decentralise power as much as possible, to maximize democracy. The problem is, of course, is that efficiency drops off. But there are ways round that; my task is to find them.

Jishdefish · Post by **Jishdefish** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:13 pm

This really reminds me of "The Magic of Recluce". It's a book by L.E. Modesitt Jr. about a land that is made of order and chaos. The order-land is called Recluce and basically is a giant suburb patrolled and maintained by order-masters, known by the public as the 'masters'. Basically anyone who is dissatisfied is sent on a Dangergeld tour, where they go into the chaos-torn lands outside of the island of Recluce to find themselves. Most do not come back, alive or otherwise. Those who have nothing in their futures but thievery and other chaotic jobs are especially sent away.

The main character, Lerris, is dissatisfied in the sense of merely being bored with a mundane life. Which I can totally relate to, which one of the reasons I think this book is so great. Anyway he is sent on a mission through the most chaotic of all the countries called 'Candar' who is currently at a standoff with Recluce, making it even more a danger to the ill-prepared dangergelder lost between the forces of Order and Chaos.

I know I kinda already mentioned this before, but it is eerily similar to the Utopia that is so elusive and only proves that in order for one to exist there must be great suffering elsewhere.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:10 pm

Which part?

My ideal would be decentralisation as much as possible, so yes, it would be leaning towards Chaos. My version of Democracy cuts dangerously close to Anarchy.

I'd like to see every house self sufficient. Failing that, every village. Every house, I think, could be made self sufficient in energy (solar, wind, hydro, and a backup Biofuel generator running on wood waste), and every village could definately be made self sufficient in food.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:55 pm

Self sufficient? While I agree a village can be self sufficient in at least food the moral of the people living there will reach a low. At most you can only have two or three types of food a year, and some of those will be restricted to set times. So out of your 21 meals a week you will have almost the same thing every day. And they will be within a year or two from a famine. All that needs to happen is a tornado wipe out a crop, some type of plant "Disease", a fire or anything else that has caused the mass loss of crops. They may be able to use stores of food for a while, they will need to bring in more from somewhere. And if they must buy their food from else where they will need to find something other villages need. Or they will lose the "wealth" of their closed circle. And at that time trade will start and just may continue, and work out as we do now.

As for the energy part. I agree with that as well. A number of people do so. But one major problem with this is somewhat like above. Things break, and you need someone to fix them. And in such a loose system he/she can charge anything they want to, big time if they are the only one in the area.

But this will drop the number of people who can live in a set city.

I think you really need to play one of the Caesar games or Pharaoh. They will give you an idea on the running of cities like this. Or any other of the City Sim games. This is where I got the food thing from, your people will only eat cabbage for so long before the get tired of it.

Jishdefish · Post by **Jishdefish** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:44 pm

The first part mostly, and yeah I believe in the current system as long as it is severely adjusted. All roofs should be build with solar panels for a small portion of their individual energy, which adds up probably to a third of the world's energy. I don't want to get into all of it, but basically local contribution of power and resources is smiled upon, selling it to people further away is less so. Stores have a special section dedicated to local products to help smooth this along.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:01 pm

What's the chance of your Solar panels and wind turbines breaking at the same time as your backup generator running on Biofuels? A biofueled generator is quite a simple system.

As for food, well, what about that ancient of human activities? Trade.

Oh, sorry about using the term city. I was using it in a very loose sense, as in 'nation of small villages and hamlets bound together loosly under a few ideals'.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:10 pm

Really good if a tornado goes through town. Just look what happened to Greensburg, Kansas. Yes, that was a really huge tornado but it leveled almost the full town. (my use if the town is two fold) First, I am using it as showing bad things happen. Something can break the solar panel (or other energy maker) and your backup can only last for a set while. And still who will fix it? And what will stop them from charging a huge amount for it? The other reason for using Greensburg, was to post the rebuild project. (they are building is as a "green town")

So the towns will be self-sufficient yet they will also rely on trade? And in such a loose government who will set the rates for the trades? And seeing price gouging is something that happens now with laws and people to enforce them, a loose government will be infested with them.

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:01 pm

Not necessarily. If you read Richard Maybury's book "Whatever happened to penny candy?" you'll see how the laissez faire economic theory worked until the federal government under FDR implemented new controls and restrictions on the economy.

As for this city, it sounds like a diamond the size of a pickup truck: highly desirable, but unlikely to be available.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:53 am

I'm to lazy to try and read all that stuff but I think I agree with the one point made. That i think we can all agree on. In this day and age there is no way to achive pefection even if we are capable of it we as a people don't seem to really want it. We all say we do but why else would we live the way we do now of we really wanted a perfect world or city even.

lets face the facts people enjoy imperfection too much to ever get to perfecting and at this point it looks as though we'll always be that way if not get worser about it.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:02 am

So we design the city to work around and with human flaws.