Trying to clear up "fire breath"

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:38 pm

(note the quotes)

I for one think the "fire breath" of a dragon is not possible. I feel it is a metaphor or misunderstanding of other natural events. But I would like to workout what it could be with facts. (So we need to toss out magic, it is just to easy of an answer.)

I'll post some ideas I have seen with a science outlook on it.

(but let us work something out.)

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:23 pm

Yes. I keep telling myself to find out if there is a few chemicals that are organic and could be produced by a living organism and that can be combined together, along with oxygen and hopefully create fire...
That would be where to start scientifically.

And yes its true, magic can be an excuse for everything. Its such an easy explanation!

But, if we get anything along with the fire breathing ability, what about the less popular Ice/ Frost breath?

But, what do you mean by a misunderstanding of natural events? Like bush fires?

Jishdefish · Post by **Jishdefish** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:53 pm

Well, if we are going by old English tales of knights vs. dragons it could be an organic acid that the dragon spit on those who threatened it. I mean if it looks like a burn and feels like a burn, most likely they'll think its a burn.

And then if the first tale was confused like that somehow, then it is no surprise that when a dragon opened its mouth the next knight would wince, miss seeing the imagined gout of 'flame' and be partially burned by the stuff, thinking it was fire while running back to town with his tail between his legs.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:03 pm

Somewhat like that. I am thinking more like swamp gas igniting. During the day it is almost nothing, but at night (when unknown creatures are about) you see a burst of flame with no idea where it came from. And like an earlier post of mine maybe meteorite or something like that. You see flames and bright lights in the sky, without knowledge of things like that what else can it be.

My main worry of a natural created gas or whatever by a creature, is how can it create enough to keep a flame or whatever. All I can do is look at a flame-thrower, and see its canisters of liquid mix to work a usable fire weapon.

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:17 pm

It could be a mixture of the two, there are reports of everything from fireballs to plume fire, etc.

I personally think claiming that dragonfire is a metaphor is a cop-out. Too many legends attest to actual flames for it to be easily dismissed.

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:45 pm

True enough, I do believe that their fire breathing abilities is more probable, becuase of the vast accounts that they were fire breathing and it is seen as their main trait. Its so famous and such a characteristic of dragons that it wouldnt really make sense if they didnt breathe fire, even though it is such an unlikely gift.

But I can also understand how they were thought to have been breathing fire when they might not have been, like your idea Jishdefish. And of course, in older times when strange occurances like the swamp gas igniting, people would believe it was some creature's doing. This reminds me of the so called "werelights", which are glowing lights above bogs, boglights maybe?, they were thought to be fairies carrying lanterns to lead travelers astray. But these are explained as natural occurances nowadays.

But what about this phenomenon called "Spontaneous Combustion", where things just randomly set on fire? Like objects and people.

As for how dragons could breathe fire, I still think the acidic liquid in the stomach combining with the air is the best idea.

alondor · Post by **alondor** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:16 pm

[quote="Blue Tiger"]As for how dragons could breathe fire, I still think the acidic liquid in the stomach combining with the air is the best idea.[/quote]

Or Acid from the stomach coming up from the mouth (which is protected and having a really bad burn level

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:16 pm

Or, is it like the metallic scraping sound of a sword being pulled out of its scabbard from the movies. Everyone "knows" is must happen, and you see it in all movies. But a sword makes little to no sound in that manner.

What is the same is for fire breath. We all "know" they have fire breath, so the stories with it sounds more true. But are we being fooled by what we think we know. I agree something started the connection of fire and dragon. It may be something as simple as it breathing out a stomach gas at someone holding a torch or at a campfire. And then the breath catches fire. (I know that was a little low but somehow it works)

But I still canâ€™t see the fire breath as a reliable weapon. Counting on even if a dragon is the size I think if as. Is more than a threat to an unarmed single human. (even an armed single human may have trouble) Using its claws and teeth, I see dragons attacking more like the large cats. And if they had flight, the even better for them. Maybe it is something like the rattle on a rattlesnake, a warning sign to say â€œkeep away from meâ€. And it is true most creatures will run from a sudden fire.

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:46 am

Actually, I agree with that vamp, It seems to be a bit of an "over the top" ability, as well as an unlikely evolutionary ability.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:53 am

Two chemicals, which can be produced by certain animals (insects) mixing can cause a flame. All fire needs is a Fuel and an Oxidiser, plus something like a spark to ignite the mixture. An Acidic reaction could provide the heat, a gas like methane mixed with air providing the flame.

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:40 pm

That may be another idea. The main problem is, where does the "spark of fire" come from? I see it as either a biological effect or maybe a static shock thing. I really donâ€™t believe in them using another material to do this.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:01 am

The 'spark' comes from an Acidic reaction, it doesn't have to be a literal spark.

Post by **Tempest** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:58 pm

I will add my two cents to this discussion, well maybe some personal perspectives as well.

To recaps the basic, a typical combustion reaction requires the "fire triangle": an oxidizing agent, fuel and heat.

If we want to keep it simple, the oxidizing agent is the oxygen found in the atmosphere; no self-sufficient oxygen source such nitrate salts. Fuel can be a liquid organic oil, an alcohol (there would need a protective layer to prevent it from interacting with cell membranes) or a flammable gas, though gas is bit more difficult to contain and do not make a very efficient flame thrower (ex: the flame of a Bunsen burner is rather well focused but still short range), you can compensate with a greater pressure to expel the gas but it adds a layer of complexity. Lastly, a heat source such as a flame or spark is normally required to set off the reaction but this is absent in the case of spontaneous combustion.

By heart, spontaneous combustions can only be achieved through spontaneous heating (I think it can be done with enzymes, I will really have to look a bit deeper on this), hypergolic reactions or pyrophoricity. Moreover, this kind of combustion would need to be 1) inert in storage and 2) to be self-activated once "outside".

So the problem can be approached from different angles. For example, a substance that react to air or two chemicals mixed together prior to the "breath" resulting in the ignition of the fuel. Such delayed combustion has the advantage to result in a safe distance between the creature's head and the target.

I don't say it would be easy to explain or that it would even be realistic from an evolutionary perspective but I think it can be done (at least, on paper).

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:45 am

Holy monkey, I got Tempest to post in one of these.

That may be my main problem with the fire breath. I don't see how nature worked it out so I can't see it happening.

But still (however it is done) I see it as a defense reaction. Somewhat like the spitting cobra, toads (poison under skin) or [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle]bombardier beetle. It will blow out the flame when confronted with an attacker with hope they will run from the heat. But the flame must have limits, both distance and the number of times it can be used. And even a dog sized dragon would be dangerous using its talons and teeth.

And the pure point the fire (though hot) might not be hot enough to cause any lasting damage. Like with running your fingers through a candle flame, it is hot but even slowly you are not really burnt.

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:25 am

Wow Tempest, im on a chritmas holiday at the moment and your post just brought back loads of things from chemistry and biology classes, garrr, I dont want to think of school till after xmas!

But, your ideas are perfect as far as I can see. Also, vamps idea of the spiting cobra also makes sense. Because if the dragon was to breathe fire, whats to stop it from burning its own tongue, and doing long term damage to the teeth? (This would require a whole new discussion on how the mouth is protected!) Also, the acid idea might destroy the teeth aswell...

So, the mixture igniting a few feet from the mouth would be safer, and would also compliment the idea that the mixtures need a little time to mix with the air. But it still might dissolve the teeth, thats why if a person was Bulimic(*Spell?) , the dentist is the first to find out. So dragons teeth will have to be special too...

One book I have says that it is a mixture of Phosphorus and methane produced in a second stomach that ignites with oxygen immediatley after it leaves the dragons mouth.

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:56 pm

Without starting a witch hunt, there is no problem explaining it from a creationist perspective...

I think "immediately" risks burning the dragons, so maybe an inch forward would work.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:13 pm

Creationism explains how it got there. It doesn't explain how it works.

Methane needs ignition...

Post by **Tempest** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:10 pm

@vampirehunter: It's an Xmas miracle

Well, I don't think it's possible to explain how such breath weapon could have evolved either but it's still fun to try. If we assume that the system is in place, I think small evolutive steps would eventually push it from the more "bluffing" side to something more deadly. I think t would greatly depend on what kind of fuel is used which would also cover how hot and how damaging the flame is.

Assuming the dragon fuel storage space is the same, a gas of low molecular weight and low density wouldn't produce much energy when burned. If this is used, then the breath weapon is limited to something that will certainly affray other creatures but wouldn't be very damaging and there wouldn't have a lot of room for improvement over time. However, a liquid would be more deadly.

Again, it also depends if the fuel begins to burn in-air (a lot of energy is wasted before it even hits the target) or only after it has hit the target. I'm starting to like the idea of delayed combustion, because in a way, it turns a weapon that does immediate injury to something that breaks moral as well (it goes from "Ouch! You will pay for this!" to "Ewww, oh god no!" *run around for a few seconds before bursting in flame*).

So on that part I think it's more a matter of physics than biology but otherwise, I agree, it would have limits over how many times it could be used and it certainly wouldn't replace claws and teeth.

@Blue Tiger: I can't help it, just love biology and chemistry.

For an acid breath weapon, it wouldn't be as nearly unexplainable. There is always a possibility for the teeth to use a different mineral composition that would be more resistant to acid, but even without anything special the creature could simply renew its teeth more often or cells in the mouth could coat them with some sort of protective layer or the creature could have a saliva with a higher pH to balance to things out.

@Falconer: Usually, there is never any problem when explaining things from a creationist perspective. The real difficulty is when it's time to explain what god is made of, where s/he comes from, who created him/her and how he can do all these things and in the end, the explanation has merely displaced the problem elsewhere. And no, I'm not itching for a creationism vs evolution debate... I'm just pointing out that the discussion wouldn't be about dragons anymore.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:08 pm

For example, the stomach walls never wear out and they're coated in acid all the time. Well puking up the throat gets burnt from acid, but it survives.

Perhaps, then, a fuel that is similar to Hydrogen Peroxide? It wouldn't be true flame breath, more like steam breath, but I'm sure there are other fuels that would have that effect.

As for a combustible fuel... alcohol? I don't see any reason why Dragons would be unable to ferment sugars in a stomach to produce it.

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:46 pm

The problem is that alcohol fires are notorios for burning at a low temperature, which is where the special effects for burning people is based. I don't know about H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), but from what I've heard it has a similar low heat of combustion.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:21 am

So? It still scares away predators. No need to burn yourself unless you have to.

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:54 pm

Hmmm, and maybe snakes should just inject a saline solution instead of poison. For the fire to be an actual deterrent, it has to actually burn.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:50 pm

Snakes with poison mainly use it, or used it, to kill prey.

Creatures wold still run at the sight of fire.

alondor · Post by **alondor** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:00 pm

dragons as intellegent creatures probably enjoy a cooked meal so fire is for hunting and there are gasses that egnite when they meet air so the stomach might produce siad chemical and send it up. basicly it would be controlled flaming barf

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:04 am

My main concern in the amount of heat produced. Yes many things can burn. I can hold my hand over the flame of a candle and only get a stain from the wax. Most things talked about above would burn for a short time and have a low heat. At most the only damage a dragon's fire would do is singe some of your hair off, or a really bad sunburn.

But most creatures (including us) would not want that to happen twice. So I see it as a defensive weapon.