Trying to clear up "fire breath"

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:55 am

Are you sure Alcohol burns at that low of a temperature? It was used in Russian rockets (although that was Ethanol, not Methanol.. most of the time)....

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:21 pm

Well that is true. But remember the time.

I can't find that rocket. But here are some stats for a V-2. Note the time of burn and the amount of alcohol it burns in that time. (In bold stuff)
Link

Power: Liquid-fuelled rocket motor
Ethyl Alcohol (75%): 8179 lb, 3710 kg
Liquid-oxygen: 10802 lb, 4900 kg
Warhead: 1627 lb of explosives, 738 kg
(not high explosives, because of frictional warmth exceeding 1200 degrees F during flight)
Launch weight: 12.8 tons, 13000 kg
Hydrogen Peroxide 285 lbs, 129 kg
Sodium Permanganate 35 lbs, 15.8 kg
Nitrogen 30 lbs (Nitrogen has multiple services, the difficult valve system is operated by it and the pressure in the alcohol tank)
Thrust at liftoff: 55100 lb, 25,000 kg
Fuel consumption, per sec:
286 lb, 130 kg
Acceleration at liftoff: 0.9 g
Burn time: 65 sec.
Guidance: Gyro Preset
Burning temp. 4802 degrees F, 2650 degrees C
Consumption 276 lbs/per sec, 125 kg/per sec
Max motor temp: ~2700 degrees C, ~4890 degrees F
Motor pressure: 15 bar, 217 lb/sq inch
Nozzle expansion ratio: 15.45:0.85
Warhead/Launch weight ratio: 0.075
Maximum speed: 5400 km/h, 3355 mph
Maximum altitude: 96 km, 60 miles
Length: 14 m, 46 feet
Body diameter: 1.651 m, 5 ft. 5 inches
Diameter over fins 3.55 m, 11 ft. 8 inches
Rocket stays vertical after liftoff: 5 sec.
-completes tilt within: 50 sec.
-attains angle of 49 degrees from vertical at: 54 sec.
-passes speed of sound: 25 sec.
Velocity along trajectory (max): 1600 m / sec., 1 mi / sec.
Impact velocity: 1100 m / sec., 3600 ft. / sec.
Apogee of trajectory: 90 km, 56 mi
Range: 320 km, 199 mi

alondor · Post by **alondor** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:12 pm

there is always the possibility that the low life knights were lying and dragons can't breath fire at all. OR dragons were always come upon when they were yawning and there caves are excruciatingly hot so the knights interpreted it weirdly

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:03 pm

vampirehunter42 wrote:My main concern in the amount of heat produced. Yes many things can burn. I can hold my hand over the flame of a candle and only get a stain from the wax. Most things talked about above would burn for a short time and have a low heat. At most the only damage a dragon's fire would do is singe some of your hair off, or a really bad sunburn.

But most creatures (including us) would not want that to happen twice. So I see it as a defensive weapon.

I see your point. But then, what kind of chemical methods would be needed to create an offensive weapon? Making the fire extremely hot and that could burn through anything?

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:07 pm

Just saw this cool film by Animal Planet about dragons:
"DRAGON'S WORLD: A Fantasy Made Real"

In it, they claim dragons used a mixture of hydrogen and methane, ignited with a platinum catalyst.

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:04 pm

Youre a little late there falconer.

Nah dont take offense, that programme came out ages ago, but ive never been lucky enough to see it. Its very good, the way the dragons were shown as realistic as possible. It always comes on the tv when ever im not watching it! and thats quite rare!

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:21 am

*cough cough* own it *cough cough* extra shots *cough cough*

I did look into that. And it "works" but it will still just make a quick flame.

Still the problem will be how concentrated the gas is. It would have to be really close to pure to burn well. And the "extra lungs", as they called it, would only hold a set amount.

alondor · Post by **alondor** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:58 pm

that could be why dragons have such great size and yet can fly, their lung takes up a large portion of thier body

Blue Tiger · Post by **Blue Tiger** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:39 pm

dragonmaster wrote:that could be why dragons have such great size and yet can fly, their lung takes up a large portion of thier body

Well, a dragon's actual size is disputable, but going back to the fire breathing, Vamp, do you think that a very large dragon could produce a high energy destructive fire breath? Considering its size, maybe that wil allow it to have a high temperature "Napalm" breath...?

Post by **vampirehunter42** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:23 pm

I would not think so. Something like that will need to be in either liquid form or maybe a jell like substance. And that will be more weight than it would be worth. But it would make a great weapon, it can stick to the target and keep it burning, like Napalm or flame-throwers. I can see a non-flying dragon to have an attack like this. But the substance would really weigh the creature down for flight.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:46 pm

Unless they spat it out prior to flying. Knights tended to get fried while the Dragon was still on the ground.

But flying Airbrathing Dragons make for such good film shots!

Falconer · Post by **Falconer** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:04 pm

Maybe they're using another form of energy. Think about it: we assumed that some material was ignited then ejected, but all a flame really is is heated air.

Corva · Post by **Corva** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:21 am

While it s possible that Dragons ingest Uranium Oxide and can Fission it, it is highly unlikely. That's the only other possibility. There isn't that many ways to produce enough heat. Unless...

Electric eels manage to produce high voltages. It may be possible for Dragons to do so, to ignite Methane.