RE: frost dragons : Forgotten question

[Drakel]

Ok. I bin trying to undurstand about frost dragons all year! I only know a few things about the frost dragon. A frost dragon is just like a dragon but breaths a Freezzing Element to freez there targets, and that they love the cold. I only need help knowing what and how a frost dragon breaths the Frozen Element.

My Theory
I also think a frost dragon has 2 sets of lungs. Set 1 inhails and exhails, puting Oxegen into its system to give it more energy into it's body. Set 2 would some how turn 15-30% of the oxegen into the unknown frozen element. Just like the European Dragon. What I realy need help is there are only a few elements like this and how could the frost dragon hold this element in it without killing it?I got down the Logic, Historic , and of corse some small details. All I need is help with the major science probs.

If you don't like my theory than plz typ your own and if you do like my theory I would love it if you helped me solve the puzzle.
Agin PLZ typ what you think!

[Falconer]

I like the general idea. Another thought is this:

Chemical reactions usually have an Enthalpy change, that is they either radiate energy, usually in the form of heat, or they absorb it from their surroundings. That's the idea behind those cold packs where you have to break the inner plastic thingy- the resulting reaction produces intense cold. Take, for example, the bombardier beetle. Until the chemicals in its abdomen are mixed, they are fairly harmless. But when they are combined... boom.

Same here. The chemical ingredients in a frost dragon would be room temp or so, until they were mixed and exhaled, at which point they would reach the frigid sub-zero temperature that frost dragon slayers know and love.

[Blue Tiger]

Yes, that makes sense Falconer.
One point, not really related to the breath weapon, but, I prefer to call them Ice Dragons, it makes more sense, as frost is just a bit of frozen moisture, where as ice is the real thing and incorporates the dragons habitat and what the prey is going to get turned into, hehe!
Theres an explanation on Ice dragons breath weapon on the main site. www.colba.net/~tempest/

[Drakel]

kk ty for your help all i need is a few more posts on this subject! We might have something we ALL agree on first time for evry thing lol!

ps. Frost dragons, ice dragons, what is the diffrence, other than the name. Heck you can even call them snow dragons lol. I wouldn't tho!

pss. ty for solving the puzzle falkore.

[Falconer]

No problem. I knew two semesters of chemistry would come in handy.

[vampirehunter42]

Still you have the time of reaction and the "spiting" problem. Yes a burn pack can get cold "fast" but with a lot of work mixing and meshing with it. And how would a dragon send this mixture at a target? The best long ranged animal is the spitting cobra which can hit a target 3 meters (10 ft) away. (well that is not helping me that is twice that species' body length.) And this is with a solid stream of stuff. If a dragon sends out a mist it will really drop its range. Just think about using a bottle of window cleaner, set it to spray and then to mist. Then compare how far it will reach.

Otherwise you are thinking about stuff under pressure. Like a fire extinguisher, most are kept under pressure. And if you have even felt a CO2 one, you know it cools stuff it goes on.


(Sorry for being a downer on this stuff, but without the downers around you will never get the kinks out of the theory.)

[Drakel]

Still you have the time of reaction and the "spiting" problem. Yes a burn pack can get cold "fast" but with a lot of work mixing and meshing with it. And how would a dragon send this mixture at a target? The best long ranged animal is the spitting cobra which can hit a target 3 meters (10 ft) away. (well that is not helping me that is twice that species' body length.) And this is with a solid stream of stuff. If a dragon sends out a mist it will really drop its range. Just think about using a bottle of window cleaner, set it to spray and then to mist. Then compare how far it will reach.

Otherwise you are thinking about stuff under pressure. Like a fire extinguisher, most are kept under pressure. And if you have even felt a CO2 one, you know it cools stuff it goes on.

yes you are right about the mist prob but Falconer is 70% right. So in a scientific eye Falconer and my theary would be true. mainly Falconer seing he solved my prob!

[Falconer]

Yes a burn pack can get cold "fast" but with a lot of work mixing and meshing with it.

To go back to the bombardier beetle, the mixture they spray is ready the instant it comes out. Reaction rate is entirely dependent on available energy, presence or absence of a catalyst, quality of said catalyst, and the reaction mechanics. Consider the following, where G = gas, L = liquid, S = solid, and c = catalyst:

S1 + S2 -(c)-> L + G

What this basically says is that solid 1 reacts with solid 2 in the presence of a catalyst to form a liquid and a gas. If I could figure out how to type an up arrow and a delta sign this would be easier.
The gas formed would be at a high pressure in the dragon's mouth, much like coke in a can:

H2CO3 -> H2O + CO2

And we all know what happens when you shake a can of coke. When in the presence of a catalyst, the decomposition of carbonic acid gets even stronger:

H2CO3 -(mentos)-> H2O + CO2 + large mess

Now not only does the coke go everywhere, but it pretty much explodes out of the container. See now? The catalyst boosts the reaction speed, and the formation of a gas increases the explosive force. Rapid expansion of hot gas = propulsion of burning/freezing liquid.

[vampirehunter42]

Well yes a 2 inch bug can do that. But then why is it not larger?

We are talking about an animal at least the size of a large dog. Not a can of soda not a small bug. And in both of the cases the explosive reaction lasts just a couple of seconds if that. And as far as I have seen both rely on a small opening to help add the distance to the reaction.

(at least for a can of soda, just open it quick enough and you don't get much loss.)

[Drakel]

I ain't getting into your conversation any more but still would like you guys to keep posting your thouts and Ideas of frost/ ice dragons.

ps. I kinda agree with Falconer on this 1. but still! More info the better.

[Falconer]

Well yes a 2 inch bug can do that. But then why is it not larger?

For the same reason chicken's don't have hairy tentacles on their feet. That's just how the genetic dice rolled.

We are talking about an animal at least the size of a large dog. Not a can of soda not a small bug. And in both of the cases the explosive reaction lasts just a couple of seconds if that. And as far as I have seen both rely on a small opening to help add the distance to the reaction.

Size of the opening is rather irrelevant- the important part is pressure, measured in pounds per square inch. Also, the coke can was an analogy- the real, dragonfire reaction would have to be many times more powerful.

[vampirehunter42]

I decided to stop trying on this one as well.....

Though I am working on a new question to get us out of this breath weapon thing.

[Falconer]

No! We must continue this pointless debate!

[Drakel]

I decided to stop trying on this one as well.....

Though I am working on a new question to get us out of this breath weapon thing.

O_O
OMG! Did you just beat vamp. falconer?! Did not thout it was possible! There is hope after all lol!

No! We must continue this pointless debate!

lol. ty for all your help

[Falconer]

I decided to stop trying on this one as well.....

Though I am working on a new question to get us out of this breath weapon thing.

O_O
OMG! Did you just beat vamp. falconer?! Did not thout it was possible!

I know... O_o I have never seen 42 back down before, ever. You feeling all right?

[Drakel]

I decided to stop trying on this one as well.....

Though I am working on a new question to get us out of this breath weapon thing.

O_O
OMG! Did you just beat vamp. falconer?! Did not thout it was possible!

I know... O_o I have never seen 42 back down before, ever. You feeling all right?

Ya you gave me a hard time vamp., even put me down 2 years! All to stand for what you think is right. you could be 1 out of 2 things. Hart less ( witch I don't think you are) or dedicated to yourself. But neaver will I think some1 with your neaver ending way of staying in a fight ways would end so fast. For this YOU are one of the hardest ppl I could talk to and for this you have my respect. No1 not even my own family gained respect that eassy. Some ppl in my family still don't have it. You know that you are gifted with the knolege of drakenology jst like us all. You are so dedicated that I have to say all these things. you desurve better frome me than what I gave you in the dragons breath conversation.

ps. this was supose to be a compement. plz don't take it the wrong way vamp.

pss. Are you doing ok. Did you get hurt or something becouse we are all freinds here?!

psss. Neaver lose Hope and you will be better than any 1 could say for hope puts you higher than other ppl who are hopeless.


psss. Only my dad and mom has respect frome me in my fammily. enjoy my respect becouse I don't give it out mutch.

[vampirehunter42]

Feeling ok. My temper is a little short these days. And I am trying not to take it out on the board.

[Falconer]

Just everyone keep in mind, we're all friends and intelligent people here, and that in the end we can't know anything definitive about dragons.

[Tempest]

Well yes a 2 inch bug can do that. But then why is it not larger?

For the same reason chicken's don't have hairy tentacles on their feet. That's just how the genetic dice rolled.

It's also a matter of physics. A small pewter toy bridge can be surprisingly resistant if someone steps on it. The same bridge 1000 times bigger will also be a million times weaker. So the compartment holding the pressured gas would probably have to be a lot stronger, with thicker walls and so on than in a beetle and this may not be biologically possible.

As for the "frost breath"... I really need to update the website because I can't objectively think that a breath that turn people into ice status can exist. It's not efficient and it's not "penetrating" (put acetone on your hand, it's get cold quickly but it warms up equally fast). But in a cold climate, it can be something more insidious; something as simple as a watery soap-like substance spitted on an opponent that will eventually kill the target because it's affect it's ability to withstand cold. If your cloth are wet in winter, then they don't perform as well as dry. Now add something into the solution to dissolve oil to make the water reach the skin and it breaks the natural defense of someone/something against cold.

[Drakel]

Ok. I bin trying to undurstand about frost dragons all year! I only know a few things about the frost dragon. A frost dragon is just like a dragon but breaths a Freezzing Element to freez there targets, and that they love the cold. I only need help knowing what and how a frost dragon breaths the Frozen Element.

My Theory
I also think a frost dragon has 2 sets of lungs. Set 1 inhails and exhails, puting Oxegen into its system to give it more energy into it's body. Set 2 would some how turn 15-30% of the oxegen into the unknown frozen element. Just like the European Dragon. What I realy need help is there are only a few elements like this and how could the frost dragon hold this element in it without killing it?I got down the Logic, Historic , and of corse some small details. All I need is help with the major science probs.

If you don't like my theory than plz typ your own and if you do like my theory I would love it if you helped me solve the puzzle.
Agin PLZ typ what you think!

kk you all know this old topic.(possably the only one that Vamp. EVER backed down on) well it is back with a new question that never got answered.

how could the frost dragon hold this element in it without killing it?

this is the last GAP that needs to be filled on this Frost dragon thing and then I will be good with the frost dragon thing for a wile.

[alondor]

easy the frost dragon lives in the extreme cold so when it breathes out CO2 it freezes its target. It has control over its body temp to not freeze things the rest of the time

[Drakel]

yah I kinda knew there would be an answer like that -_- just trying to make more topics for every one to write in LOL

[Drakel]

I don't know tempest. It just dousn't sound right. Ya it sounds more scientific, but it just dousn't seem right to me. I don't know why tho. mabe you are right, but it just dousn't feel right. Honestly it kinda looks like a posible idea but yet it dousn't seem to fit with a real dragon. It would be like saying a snake and a fish are the same family. ya snakes and fish has scales but they have diffrent propertys. Kinda like what you are saying about a frost dragon wouldn't add up to be a europion dragon's cousin.

Cobra and guarden snake can add up into more snakes, but a cobra and a fish will never add up.

[raptor]

i think it might have something with nitrogen. mabybe it is liquid vemon, that mixes with nitrogen to make the vemon to freezes it. it would a much more of a deadly weapon than just ice by itself.

[raptor]

they store these elements in a special gland. and something like with crocodiles plugging the back of their thorats to keep their lungs from flooding with water. the same would be with fire/watering breathing dragons. ice dragon most likely have a plug to stop the compound from freezing its lungs. that's why they could breath all the ice they want but don't freeze themselves from the inside out. i think ice dragons are coooool. their are my fifth favorite dragon speices.