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Some one stuck up an argument with me the other day about how dragons are evil because that's what lucifur turned into as he was cast out of heaven in the bible.

Now I relize were not all savy with the book and so such, but bare with me if you will.

Do you think Lucifur turning into a serphent makes dragons evil?

Lucifer turned himself into a serpent (note: not a dragon, that comes later) to deceive Eve. It does describe him in Revelation (my favorite book of the Bible) as a dragon, but I'd say that just reflected public fear of how strong and powerful dragons are.

I'd say dragons are either Angels or Demons (there's a book in there lol.). That is, some are good, some are are bad. I might write a book called 'Chariots of Gods servents', saying the beings we call Angels are aliens sent to Earth to help the human race lol. Demons also come and cause havoc. Dragons are just an alien race.

Theres another passege some where in the bible I don't remember where exactly. that says something about owls and dragons. Almost as if to say they where regular everyday animals. Although the line it's in is rather short and doesn't really say anything about dragons after that. It really has nothing to do with dragons from what I gathered by reading the passage. But it proves that dragons where more like beasts than alians.

Although I can see where people from back then would concider a dragon evil if it were a wild animal, because think of it this way. Regular wild animals focus on serviving because it's their nature right? A dragon being a big creature would require a lot of food to live, and in comparison to most creatures that scurry around on the earth people are pretty big, not to mention delicate, and easy to catch.

If you really see it from a dragons point of view the best way to suvive would be to eat the big, slow, and incredably soft humans that seemed to be so pleantiful durring that time. They aren't really evil, just hungery like any other animal.

In fact the only real advantage humans have over any other creature is their intellagents. Thats something intresting to ponder upone isn't it?

As far a sepents go, well from what I've gathered a sepent back then would be more of a dragon than a snake, remember snakes lost their legs because of that whole eden insident. In fact some people actuly argue that snakes are the desendents of dragons, and thats why no one sees dragons anymore.

Do remember that anything written that long ago and translated over time and written for an easier for modern readers to read, may not be 100% what it says. And sometimes things just don't translate, like if someone in 1000 years read something about a person is a "cool cat" would they know what that ment?

Thats true, but I highly dought people were too into figurtive speaking back then.

they probably had their own form of figurative language....you know, like the whole 'forty days and nights' thing all the time.

For once, I'm actually interested in a discussion in this forum Good grief. Here we go.

Now I don't read the Bible - never have done, never had the need to and was raised to pretty much pick what religion I wanted. This means that I've become, well, tolerant of all religions. I don't know where I heard this, but apparently Oliver Cromwell (a Puritan who believed God had a great path/destiny for him) said that "God made sin, and God is good, therefore it is not against our souls to sin." Or something along those lines - I'm not even certain if Cromwell even said this, but he was somehow connected.

It seemed relevant to the post discussing whether or not dragons were evil when put into this context. So yar.

*retreats*

so yur saying that evil is good and good is the same thing as evil? it makes perfect since yet it makes no since!

and quiet frankly that makes my head hurt!

*Brain explodes*

I think, think only, that it means that if something (or someone, depends on how you view 'God') so good made sin, sin cannot be evil as its the result of something good.

Maybe.

I know of a theory as to where the idea that dragons were evil. The wizards were jealous of the dragons superiority in magic and told people that they were incarnations of evil, just out of spite really. But thats just one theory, I dont think they are evil, and also there is the idea that serpents, ie snakes are evil and represent evil, but they are just animals, but in anchient times they were seen as evil, out of misunderstanding. This is the same as dragons, misunderstanding,so,... the anchient religious people had to choose some icon for evil...lol Its just the way it was, we can make up our own minds now...

*I'll probably get cooked for this one*

The Devil (In regards to the opening post) didn't change into the serpent as such - he entered into the serpent and controlled the serpents mind. Lucifer was an angel who fell - became a fallen angel. He can take on many appearances - including an angel of light, so in the book of revalations he takes on the appearance of a Dragon. Ever since that time Dragons have been regarded as evil, but I believe that this is mans opinion, not fact. Of course there would have been good dragons and evil ones, but they weren't all evil.

Going back to the opening post of Pandora's when Lucifer was cast out of heaven he did not change his form. He was, and is still an angel - a fallen one. As I said he can enter others minds and control them, and take on the appearance of another.

Hope this clears things up.

*I'll probably get cooked for this one*

The Devil (In regards to the opening post) didn't change into the serpent as such - he entered into the serpent and controlled the serpents mind. Lucifer was an angel who fell - became a fallen angel. He can take on many appearances - including an angel of light, so in the book of revalations he takes on the appearance of a Dragon. Ever since that time Dragons have been regarded as evil, but I believe that this is mans opinion, not fact. Of course there would have been good dragons and evil ones, but they weren't all evil.

Going back to the opening post of Pandora's when Lucifer was cast out of heaven he did not change his form. He was, and is still an angel - a fallen one. As I said he can enter others minds and control them, and take on the appearance of another.

Hope this clears things up.

Just wondering wrote:Hope this clears things up.

<3 This is where we can all share opinions, not make a 100% rock solid one. I'm not a religious person as such and I'm offering what smatterings I've picked up.

If you read the book of Job, I can't exactly remember where, but God describes a beast he calls the "Behemouth"(SP?), anyone who has read this knows what I'm talking about. This beast's discription is nearly identical to that of a dragon.

Wrong one
Behemoth, is generally translated by "great beasts"; in its wider signification it includes all mammals living on earth, but in the stricter sense is applied to domesticated quadrupeds at large. However in Job, xl, 10, where it is left untranslated and considered as a proper name, it indicates a particular animal. The description of this animal has long puzzled the commentators. Many of them now admit that it represents the hippopotamus, some Young Earth Creationists think it's a dinosaur like the Apatosaurus or the Brachiosaurus, so well known to the ancient Egyptians; it might possibly correspond as well to the rhinoceros.


Your thinking...
Leviathan. � The word Leviathan (Hebrew, líweyãthãn), which occurs six times in the Hebrew Bible, seems to have puzzled not a little all ancient translators. The D.V. has kept this name, Job, iii, 8; xl, 20; Is., xxvii, 1; it is rendered by dragon Ps. lxxiii (Hebr., lxxiv), 14, and ciii (Hebr., civ), 26; The word leviathan means:
(1) crocodile (Job 40:20 and Psalm 73:14);
(2) a sea-monster (Psalm 103:26, Isaiah 27:1);
(3) possibly the Draco constellation (Job 3:8).
(4) a Dinosaur, possibly the Kronosaurus.

wow, thats more than I ever knew.

so out of curiousity, how'd you learn all that?

I wouldn't exactly call that common knowlage.

If it is, well that doesn't exactly make feel very smart, but feeling dumb seems to be my new passtime.

+ Silver - Orbs + wrote:

Just wondering wrote:Hope this clears things up.

<3 This is where we can all share opinions, not make a 100% rock solid one. I'm not a religious person as such and I'm offering what smatterings I've picked up.

Woops, sorry, I realized that after I accidently double posted and I couldn't edit it. *Punishes self* I never meant for it to be taken as the be all end all, but mistakes do happen. So to clear things up what I should have said was:

'This is my opinion, I hope it gives you something to think about.'

In this subject of dragons as a whole, nothing is 100% and I'm sorry to have come across like that.

Pandora wrote:wow, thats more than I ever knew.

so out of curiousity, how'd you learn all that?

I wouldn't exactly call that common knowlage.

If it is, well that doesn't exactly make feel very smart, but feeling dumb seems to be my new passtime.

Well half from reading some things on the bible, but I got that from wiki's list of animals from the bible.... But as posted the bible quotes are a little vague, in wording and as posted can be taken as most anything.

The Leviathan is meant to be a creature that was here on earth before god, he did not create it. It is supposed to be huge and its reapearence on earth heralds the end of the world/ armagedon(sp?). That is what i remember from somewhere without revising it, so ill probably check out more details later. The Behemoth is another god like creature, very big, but not really sure on that one....

I would really like for you do dig that up where ever you found it.

wiki? I see, till a few weeks ago I didn't know what wiki was or that it existed in the first place. It's just amazing what kind of info you can find on the net if you know where to look. Unfortunatly I'm not so great at the knowing where to look part.

And yes the bible doesn't really give much to go by I agree, but as far as historical documents go it's about the most solid thing to go by for that paticular time.

I think the fact that it was writen by men is the bigest part to blam on that one. Man naturaly wants to leave himself room for his own interpratation of things. What is it with people and the fear of having to "write things in stone" so to speak anyways?


But Blue Tiger, what you said about the Leviathan I'm not seeing. I've read a lot of stuff in my day and thats the first time I've ever heard that one. Even if that was the case, god created the earth, therfore anything living on the earth he had to have created also, or at least thats my reasoning.

I found a lot of stuff on leviathan on wiki, heres what was interesting enough to post...

(Judaism)
Isaiah 27:1: "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." KJV

This is strange though....

The word Leviathan is also mentioned in Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:21: "God created the great sea monsters - Taninim." Jastrow translates the word "Taninim" as "sea monsters, crocodiles or large snakes". Rashi comments: "According to legend this refers to the Leviathan and its mate. God created a male and female Leviathan, then killed the female and salted it for the righteous, for if the Leviathans were to procreate the world could not stand before them."

Leviathan may also be interpreted as the sea itself, with its counterparts behemoth being the land and ziz being the air and space.

The enormous size of the leviathan is thus illustrated by R. Johanan, from whom proceeded nearly all the haggadot concerning this monster: "Once we went in a ship and saw a fish which put his head out of the water. He had horns upon which was written: 'I am one of the meanest creatures that inhabit the sea. I am three hundred miles in length, and enter this day into the jaws of the leviathan'" (B. B. l.c.). When the leviathan is hungry, reports R. Dimi in the name of R. Johanan, he sends forth from his mouth a heat so great as to make all the waters of the deep boil, and if he would put his head into paradise no living creature could endure the odor of him (ib.). His abode is the Mediterranean Sea; and the waters of the Jordan fall into his mouth (Bek. 55b; B. B. l.c.).

(Christianity)
The Christian interpretation of Leviathan is often considered to be a demon or natural monster associated with Satan or the Devil, and held by some to be the same monster as Rahab (Isaiah 51:9).

Some biblical scholars considered Leviathan to represent the pre-existent forces of chaos. In Psalm 74:13-14 it says "it was You who drove back the sea with Your might, who smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters; it was You who crushed the heads of Leviathan, who left him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. (JPS edition)" God drove back the waters of the Earth (Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

This is the best one...

The animal most often proposed for Leviathan is the Nile crocodile.
Like the Leviathan, the Nile crocodile is aquatic, scaly, and possesses fierce teeth. Job 41:18 states that Leviathan's eyes "are like the eyelids of the morning". Some have compared this verse to a crocodile's eyes, which rise out of the water before the rest of its head, invoking the image of the sun rising over the horizon. Major difficulties of this view are that in Job chapter 41 Leviathan is described as breathing fire like a dragon, and that the crocodile does not seem to fit the descriptions of Leviathan given in other Bible passages, such as in the book of Psalms, e.g. it does not have multiple heads.
Others suggest that the Leviathan is an exaggerated account of a whale. This view faces some difficulty, however, as early Jewish people in the Near East would not have likely encountered whales in such a warm region.

Hope that helps, im now going to look for stuff on dragons being seen as evil and maybe try and find arguments against the idea.
But remember, humans fear what they do not understand, and they despise what they fear, so they have to destroy what they fear...

Blue Tiger wrote:The Leviathan is meant to be a creature that was here on earth before god, he did not create it. It is supposed to be huge and its reapearence on earth heralds the end of the world/ armagedon(sp?). That is what i remember from somewhere without revising it, so ill probably check out more details later. The Behemoth is another god like creature, very big, but not really sure on that one....

But nothing about that? That is what I was asking about.....

Dunno what your reading, but in my Bible it says God created everything. Including the Sea Monsters (read Job).

it also says something about sea monsters in my version of Genisis, i found it amusing cause i was helping with my church's confirmation class and we were reading the creation story...so i drew a sea monster on the white board.